Womxn of Soulitude Lillian Notayi, is the tenacious womxn who organised the Stellenbosch Slut-Walk earlier this year. So, we sat down with her to find out exactly what inspired the march, and how her upbringing and current experiences have shaped her empathetic and intersectional view of feminism, as well as how she is continuously learning, unlearning and reshaping her beliefs so that she can use them to impact the womxn around her.
Q: Tell us more about yourself.
Lillian Notayi: What defines my life right now is being HK of Metanoia. I’m also a 23 year old Industrial Engineering student and my interest lie in social justice and feminism. I read a lot of articles, have a lot of conversations and watch many YouTube videos.
Q: What song plays in your head when you’re about to smash the patriarchy?
LN: Most girls by Hailee Steinfeld right now, but it changes.
Q: Favourite colour.
LN: I’m going to be stereotypical and say I like pink.
Q: You’ve mentioned in one of your Slut-walk posters that you’re not an exotic delicacy, as a womxn with an Asian background would you say that the hyper-sexualisation and objectification of Asian womxn has ever put you or your life in danger? Do you think mainstream media has played a role in that fetishisation?
LN: Wow that is a lot to unpack. I definitely experience the hyper-sexualisation of being Asian. On more than one occasion, especially foreign European men, like white men, will be like “I’m from Sweden, or I’m from Belgium and you’re Asian… do you want a white man?” So that’s happened to me a lot. It’s part of the things that make me really angry about patriarchy and how we view womxn, especially womxn of colour. I wouldn’t say it’s put me in danger, it’s made me feel uncomfortable, it’s made me feel objectified, dehumanised, but maybe not in any physical danger.
Do I think mainstream media plays a role in this? Definitely, I mean there’s a whole history of sexualisation of Asian women. You know in Harry potter with Cho Chang? There’s been sort of backlash about her character. She’s very weepy and quiet and playing into the stereotypical Asian thing. Lucy Liu always plays roles where she’s the exotic Asian womxn you know? So that’s how people start viewing Asian women, so if you’re Asian people expect you to either be quiet and submissive or sexy and quiet.
Q: How has your background or upbringing shaped you into the womxn you are today?
LN: A large part of my childhood is shaped by the fact that I grew up in children’s homes and I was fostered when I was about 11 years old. I lived with my dad when I was very young, and he was Taiwanese, but I never lived with my mom and only got to know her when I was maybe 8 or 9 years old.
That history and background has shaped how I see people and how I understand life. For me it’s never been a foreign thing to understand that there are a lot of people out there that maybe don’t have as charmed of a life as I have now, or [to understand] how poverty affects people or how being without parents affects you emotionally.
The way I grew up also helped me become an independent person. I always had to rely on myself, I always had to make sure I was doing the right thing and being focused on my life, and making sure I’m doing the things that will help grow me into a better person.
It’s also helped me be a lot more understanding and compassionate towards people. So when people are rude or when they’re really quiet or whatever, I can understand that there’s more to people than what you see, and that’s been really helpful to me.
Q: Favourite fashion trend?
LN: I like to do my makeup a lot so winged eyeliner and thick eyebrows are my favourite fashion trend right now. In terms of clothing I kind of just buy whatever I like, but in terms of makeup, the thick eyebrows-I love that.
Interviewer: See I’ve been trying to grow mine over here, because they’ve just been falling out, so I’ve been using castor oil. Whenever someone comes and knocks on my door they see me with like this shiny forehead. [Laughter]
LN: What also helps is buying eyebrow gel, it fools people into thinking you have eyebrows.
Q: As a womxn with a diverse background do you subscribe to intersectional feminism? Do you see a need for intersectional feminism? I.e. is there a difference between white or mainstream feminism and black feminism, or do you think all womxn’s problems are the same and should be solved using the same brush?
LN: I like this question… I do subscribe to intersectional feminism. So intersectional feminism being that there’s different parts of an identity and the intersection of those identities (like class, race, gender, sexuality) affect us all in different ways, but their intersection especially cannot be separated. So we can’t talk about a black queer womxn without seeing [her] as a whole human being and [not] just as a black person or [just] as a womxn. So ja, I do see a need for intersectional feminism and there’s absolutely a difference between white/mainstream feminism and black feminism. So I don’t know if this is ideologically correct, but I do think of black feminism as intersectional feminism and white feminism as only focusing on gender and not on the intersection of all the other issues. I think that white feminism is particularly dangerous because it makes it seem like the issue of gender and patriarchy is separated from all the other issues, which isn’t true. That means I don’t believe that womxn’s struggles are all the same. I think that they can be similar in some ways but I think that some women face more or different struggles on a daily basis, and also on a systematic basis.
Q: As a womxn with an intersectional background what topics would you like to see being addressed more often in feminist spaces?
LN: In more mainstream and commercial spaces I’m aware that we don’t always address the issues on intersectional feminism in terms of: race, gender, class sexuality… We don’t talk about them or unpack them or tackle them head-on to the same degree and in an intersectional manner. However, in spaces with people who are a lot more conscious about social issues we do adequately (and sometimes inadequately) address intersectional feminist issues.
I would also like more people to be talking about environmentalism. Learning about environmentalism is something new for me, so I don’t think I have enough knowledge to adequately unpack it right now; but what I learnt recently was how issues of environmentalism affect people who are poor. I never really linked environmentalism to poverty. There’s a Kenyan womxn who started and I started reading up about her and how she explained environmentalism. She talked about how it’s linked to poverty and how when the environment suffers, poor people suffer, because subsistence farmers can’t farm on land, [issues of water, etc.]. Right now we have a water crisis in the Western Cape, best believe that the people who are going to be affected are people in low income areas. When rates go up because water is now a scarce source, people who are poor are going to be affected the most. So I’d really like to get that conversation to the forefront as well.
Q: Never have I ever…?
LN: Never have I ever [laughter], okay I’m going to try give an appropriate answer… Um, never have I ever…Wow, I can’t think of anything… Never have I gone skinny-dipping.
Q: You are a light-skinned cishet womxn. Do you think your privileges have afforded you more opportunities and a bigger voice than say a dark-skinned transgender womxn from a township?
LN: Definitely, I’m actually grateful for being HK because it made me realise the privilege I had. When I disagreed with something I had the confidence to speak out about it, and I realised that other people who were affected by the same things that I was experiencing weren’t really saying anything. I was like “why aren’t you saying anything?” and my friend was like “Lilly you’re light-skinned, you speak really well, you’re cisgender and you’re heterosexual. So even though you’re saying things that are uncomfortable for people to hear, it’s a lot easier for them to swallow it when you’re saying it.” So I’m definitely starting to see a lot more, that people are more receptive to me saying something as opposed to someone who is darker skinned or someone that is openly queer.
If I do ‘the right thing’, say ‘the right thing’, speak a certain way, straighten my hair, I could fit in the Stellenbosch context, or in a predominantly white heterosexual space.
Q: Things that sound like a compliment but are actually quite insulting?
LN: Things that have been said to me?
Interviewer: Or anything that you know of.
LN: Well the one thing I can think of now is “oh, you’re so pretty for a black girl,” but I don’t think that’s ever been said to me. People have told me, “you’re so exotic, you’re so beautiful,” and I’m like “oh, exotic? Spices are exotic, fruit is exotic, but I’m a human being.”
Q: If you could steal credit for any piece of art, film, song, book etc. which one would you claim?
LN: Honestly Harry Potter.
Q: What do you love and hate about being the Womxn Empowerment HK at Metanoia?
LN: What do I love about it? I have enjoyed being able to influence this res. to start talking about issues of patriarchy and feminism, to start thinking about womxn empowerment and what that actually means; and sort of being able to speak out about it and have the platform to do so, and an incredible one. Being HK of a res. has a bit of… I want to say prestige to that. So I’ve loved being able to use that to talk about feminism.
What I hate about being HK of Womxn Empowerment is the labour that people expect you to do. So every time there’s a problem or every single time there’s a social issue in Meta, which gets quite tiring and quite annoying. At the end of the day I’m not here to solve your problem. I’m here to help you but I’m not the saviour, you should be able to educate yourself and know enough to solve your own problems.
Q: Has feminism ever come between you and your friends and family? I.e. have you ever lost problematic friends since becoming a feminist? Would you advise people to stay in these relationships and try to educate their friends or do you recommend that they should keep it moving, as constantly having to teach people about their problematic ways can be tiring?
LN: So the first part of the question: Now that I think of it I’m really fortunate in the sense that I’ve never had to unfriend people or disown people, and I’ve never been unfriended or disowned by people because I’m a feminist. My family, I don’t know if they’re pro feminism but they’re like “okay, that’s cool Lily you do you,” so I don’t know if that’s a positive or negative thing.
Would I advise people to stay in these relationships? I think it depends… a part of me wants to say no, if it’s exhausting for you it’s okay to cut your losses and to say “I’m done.” On the other side of it, is that if the person shows willingness to learn or to listen… I mean you should be able to gage your own relationship.
I suppose the other thing to talk about is whether you should be educating your oppressor? I think that’s a personal decision. It’s definitely tiring to do that but if you as a person are willing to, then that’s cool, but also realise that you’ll come to the point where it will be really really emotionally and psychologically exhausting, so being able to balance that and know that is important. If you simply aren’t willing to I think that’s fine too. I think you’re well within your rights to do that.
Q: Which song reminds you of your first heartbreak?
LN: Ugh I forgot what her name is now, but the song is called What is Love? So you know the series empire? She like…
Interviewer: Oh on the first series, the bald womxn!
LN: Yes, Her song! I just can’t remember what her name is, but the song is called What is love?
Interviewer: Ah yes, that’s a nice song!
LN: Ja that song reminds me of my first heartbreak.
Q: Curly or straight?
LN: Wow, um right now curly, but sometimes I enjoy the ease [straight hair] brings into my life, but I like my curls because there’s a lot you can do with it.
Q: My first tattoo..
LN: I don’t have a tattoo but I would like to get one. Should I say what I wanna get? My younger brother died of HIV/AIDS when he was 7 years old. So I’d like to get his name and his birthdate, but I don’t know how I want it to look yet and I’m also thinking about whether I actually want something permanent on my body.
Q: Your favourite bible scripture or verse?
LN: “There is now no condemnation for those who have Christ Jesus.” That’s my favourite, whenever I think I’m not good enough to stand before God I always think of that.
Q: How does it feel to be studying engineering, a profession that is dominated by men?
LN: Wow, infuriating sometimes but also satisfying. I never felt this before I came to university because I went to an all-girls school and I never [encountered] people being like “oh you’re not smart enough to do maths.” It was always like “oh Lily’s smart, AND she can do maths,” but then I came to varsity and everyone was like “oh you’re a woman studying engineering!” I was like “what? Is there something wrong with that?”
However, being able to say that I’ve made it so far as an engineering student and as a womxn of colour, that’s really satisfying. It’s infuriating when I don’t see representation, when trying to find a mentor and when trying to find people to help.
Q: Feminism is still quite a new concept amongst young South African womxn of colour. How would you describe it to a young womxn who may not know about it, or to womxn who may know about it but are scared to identify as feminists, and why do you think some womxn are scared to call themselves feminists?
LN: So at the core of it really, feminism is about men and womxn [being] equal…well that’s a very binary way of explaining it. Everyone in society is equal regardless of gender, race, culture, religion or sexuality, so that’s the base thing. It’s also that if you identify as a womxn, you should have the same choice and the ability to choose how you want your life to be as any other person out there in the world. So that’s essentially what feminism is and that’s how I would explain it to someone.
I think feminism has gotten a bad reputation because of the backlash of “oh you’re just trying to make women more superior,” and the backlash that a lot of men have given feminism. You’re taught to essentially seek the approval of men in society, and something that I felt when I was a teenager as well, was [that] I was reluctant to tell people that I was a feminist because I thought that guys wouldn’t wanna date me. So that’s also something that someone who’s younger, or even someone who’s my age … I think that’s probably a big thing for some people.
Interviewer: They always think we are angry at men.
LN: They just think we’re these hectic, intense, angry people that just want to burn everything, but no, I just wanna be equal.
Q: Why the slut walk?
It feels at least two lifetimes ago! Honestly, I just wanted people to wake up. I think it was in 2015 or 2016 that the university was like they’re going to investigate the “alleged” rape culture on campus. I was like ‘alleged?’ What do you mean ‘alleged?’ We’re not accusing people that there needs to be evidence, it’s that there IS rape culture on campus and our society IS permeated with rape culture. So that opened my eyes to how ignorant and unaware people are, that even the University said that they’re investigating the ‘alleged’ rape culture. That always stuck with me, and when I got to be HK of Womxn Empowerment I wanted people to understand that we live in a society that’s dangerous for womxn, and especially South Africa being the rape culture capital of the world and the sexual harassment. It’s just really unsafe and I just wanted to bring awareness to that. So that was a big why.
To localise it to Stellenbosch, I’ve spoken to quite a few people who were like “I went out one night and I got drugged and I got raped” IN Stellenbosch! You know? So that was also another reason that people need to know that this is not okay.
Q: What do you hope to have achieved by 50?
LN: It’s one of my dreams to work with but as supply chain management/ logistics/ health care delivery systems type of role.
I would really like to dedicate my life to improving the lives of the womxn wherever I am, wherever I find opportunities to help out and uplift other women. I don’t know what that looks like yet or where I’m going to be, but essentially that’s what I want to be involved in.
Q: Best book you’ve read?
LN: Something that really helped my faith is by C.S. Lewis, I’m currently re-reading that. Something that opened my eyes to race and gender and intersectional feminism is by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.
Q: Which fictional characters would you like to meet in real life and why?
LN: This is not really too nerdy, but it’s called Avatar the Last Airbender.
Interviewer: I love that!
LN: [Laughter] so I would really like to meet Katara, or like any of them.
Interviewer: The comics, did you watch that?
LN: I watched the comics and I read all of them as well. So I’d really like to meet characters from that universe because it’s just such a cool universe.
Interviewer: I like it too, she’s the first character of colour that I know of in my childhood.
Q:What would you say introduced you to feminism?
LN: My high school teacher actually, a whole, entire white woman introduced me to feminism. Her name was Miss Smith, and she taught me English in Grade 10. She asked us a question: “why do you think God is a male?” and she said because the Bible was written by men. I was like “Oh really?” but it got me thinking.
Q: Your favourite song?
LN: My favourite song now?
Interviewer: Your favourite song ever. Like ever, ever, ever. They’re playing it at your funeral, and at your wedding.
LN: Ndihamba nawe by Mafikizolo.
Interviewer: Oh my word! [laughter]
LN: That’s my favourite song, I know it’s so cliché!
Q: You’re on death row, what would your last meal be?
LN: I recently went vegan but before that I would have said ice cream.
Q: If you ruled the world what’s the first thing you would do?
LN: Wow, I would try and devise a new money system.
Q: What do you love most about yourself?
I like my eyes, in terms of physical attributes, and I like that I like reading.
Q: Growing up have you ever been told that you can’t do anything because of your gender and how did you respond?
LN: Yes I have been, the very first thing that I remember when I lived in this one children’s home in Umtata. I remember I wanted to carry a stick because I thought it was so cool to carry… I don’t know what it’s called in English but “induku,” but the house mother said “no, you can’t carry one you’re a girl, girls don’t do that. I was like “what? Why?” but I just did it anyway.
Q: How far do you think Stellenbosch must go in being more inclusive, and when dealing with patriarchy in male residences and rape culture on campus?
LN: The way they allow some of the traditions to go on, there’s policies against them but no one really enforces them. One thing to look into would be that; and maybe look into more mixed residences, I think that would help as a starting point.
Q: What does being a womxn mean to you?
LN: What is a womxn, I don’t even know? I don’t know how much of who I am is because of my gender and how much of it is just me, so I don’t know what THAT means.